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Talk:Sancta Columba/Santa Coloma (English version)
Welcome Back! FYI, Robin is on a 3 week holiday. Bill 23:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC). ::Thanks Bill. I just see this message.--Tasc 12:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC) ::Bill, which is the meaning of FYI?--Tasc 14:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC) :::FYI is "For your information". Bill 15:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC) :Gidday! You have both probably seen that I have been able to look in for some days now. Back to full (office PC) activity on Monday 8 Jan. Comments on various things below (using three colons to indent unless clearer some other way), adding more headings where possible so that I and others can follow the discussion better and can add comments in the right places. :Thank you for putting this on the Talk page! :Robin Patterson 12:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC). ::Thanks Robin for your help. --Tasc 12:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Corrections in Translation Hi Bill. Thank a lot again for your help. I see that sometimes my expressions lead to confusion. Thanks for your patience. Please, check my modifications over yours again. Regarding your comment "There's a thought missing here. Why is this being said? This is set up as a contradistinction relative to Sainte Columbe members belonging to the Knights of Santiago, but its not clear why a possible connection to the Knights of Malta and Templar is being pointed to". :Right, the phrase is not clear. Regarding Templars, this was only a speculation based on the fact that the cult to Santa Coloma was Templar. I just deleted the paragraph until I have any evidence. Several Sainte Colombe were Knight of Malta and some Santa Coloma were Knights of Santiago (St. James), but there is no relationship in this. This is only to mention that fact. I need to add the references yet. --Tasc 12:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC) :::If in doubt about something, please just "comment it out" so that it is easier to recover when ready. (That may be what you did, but "deleted" has more than one meaning.) Robin Patterson 12:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC) ::Right, I will "comment it out" when having some doubt with a paragraph. It is much better option. Thanks. --Tasc 12:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Bill. I have made several changes in the paragraph order to improve the text. Please, take a look. --Tasc 13:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC) Modifications suggested by Bill Meaning The Santa Coloma surname is a toponymic, derived from areas named after Saint Columba (Sanctae Columbae in Latin), viz: “de Santa Coloma”, "de Sainte Colombe", "a Sancta Columba", "de Sancta Columba", "di Santa Colomba", etc, meaning "from the place of Saint Columba".See additional information in Enciclopedia Católica(ES) and Columba (EN) The word "Columba" may be translated as "a white pigeon", the symbol of peace. Some branches of the Santa Coloma family incorporate a pigeon bearing an olive branch within their coat of arms. See Gaspar de Santa Coloma (ES) and the Santa Coloma family of Catalugna. A white pigeon is also used in some portions of Italy as a symbol of the cult to Saint Columba (Santa Colomba (IT)). This has led to some confusion between the cult of Saint Columba and the cult of the Holy Spirit (Espíritu Santo). This section was corrected. No more problems detected so far.--Tasc 12:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC) "Cult" :Is this the proper use of the term "cult"? In English the use of this word has perjorative connotations. ::Bill, I did not know that cult has a pejorative connotation. Which should be the correct word instead of cult? Devotion? :I'm not sure what the right term would be, but in English the term is not complimentary...possibly accurate strictu sensu, but not complimentary. It brings up images of wild-eyed fanatics, and people with a slavish veneration of a messianic leader---the wikipedia:Jonestown massacre is the type of thing that comes to mind when the term is used in English---either that or something out of Indiana Jones. :::I agree with Bill there! "Devotion to" is probably best. Robin Patterson 12:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC) Right. What about devotion to Sancta Columba and veneration to Holy Spirit? I think those could be the correct words.--Tasc 23:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC) :::"Veneration of"; probably OK. Robin Patterson 12:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC) :Perhaps "religious order" would approximate the word you are looking for; That might apply to the Knights Templar, etc. Not certain about Espíritu Santo... ::Not really. We will need to change that phrase, I think.--Tasc 23:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC) ::I have changed "cult" for devotion to SC, except when referring to the Holly Spirit, where cult was changed to veneration. I think that now the terms are right.--Tasc 12:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Toponymic - discussing places Another subject: Santa Coloma is toponymic. However, not from every place named Santa Coloma. --Tasc 23:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC) :I think you are saying that there are a number of places named "Santa Coloma" or variants, but probably only one lent its name to the Santa Coloma family. I'll adjust accordingly ::Right! Your phrase is now just want I want to say. Tasc. ::You will see that discussion later in the manuscript, when considering the origin. It is possible that some came from different places, but most genealogists believe that all are the same family, coming from one place, not yet well established (a town in Catalonia is postulated so far, but I think some town in France is more likely). So I would change the initial phrase a little. --Tasc 23:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC) Copying to Talk page Bill, let's move this to the discussion page. OK? I will copy all this to the discussion page and leave the article page a corrected version to see if you agree. Thanks a lot for your help. It is going to be a long task for you, which I appreciate very much. --Tasc 23:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC) :My pleasure. I'll work on this piecemeal. In part because I need to see where some of this is going in order to better understand what's being said. Bill 23:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC) ::I wish to be able to translate all soon, but I have been working more than 24 hours in few days (I have started the summer vacations, of course) in both version and I am exhausted already.--Tasc 23:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC) :::One of the nice things about genealogy is that as a rule, there's never any rush. And that's especially true of the Wiki---we have all the time in the world. What we don't complete today, will still be here for us to work on tomorrow. Bill 23:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC) Resumed discussion "Meaning" section ::Right. I am always anxious and this is not good. Please, see the modification that I have introduced to the last paragraph of Meaning. I think that now is much clear. :: You know, many of the histories that you will read here were found very recently, as the document that mention Ralph de Sancta Columba in England, Bonafusus of Sancta Columba in France (the first patent in history!), the history of Nessie and Saint Columba (although he is a different Saint) and the legend of Artur (Excalibur/scalibur) and its similarity with the legend of Saint Columba, among other funny histories. I think that add some mystery the history of how this last name was born and its migration to different countries. I hope other readers will enjoy it as much as I do. Regards in this New Year 2007. --Tasc 23:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC) COA I've made some additional changes dealing with the COA questions. You'll need to check that to be sure I've captured what your intent was. I've left an annotation in red in the text to indicate a question. That approach, by the way, is common on the wikipedia. It makes it easier to see where a problem lies, and once adjusted, is easily eliminated. Bill 03:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC) :I Agree and your modifications were very appropiate. I have changed the word "cult" by "devotion", which is the right word. I will do the same in the Spanish version later. --Tasc 11:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC) Better editor? Bill, I have a better editor in Wikipedia (much more commands). Do you know how to load it here?--Tasc 11:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC) :Think this would be a Robin Patterson Question. The EditMenu for WIKIA is not compatible with my browser, so I usually just use straigth out HTML edits for formating purposes. Bill 14:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC) ::I have no idea, sorry! If Tasc can show me his Wikipedia editor I may be able to find someone who can load it here or can tell us it's not possible. When Bill mentioned something like that a while ago I offered a link to a MediaWiki page, which was probably no direct help but may be useful. Robin Patterson 11:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC) :::Robin, the page describing the editor that I use in wikipedia (Monobook-Suite) is here. It is in Spanish though. I did not find an equivalent in English yet, but the figure illustrates the editor's functions. I will see if this can be loaded here in wikia (it works only for the user loading it). Thanks. --Tasc 12:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC) ::Maybe this points to what you can use: http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Editing#External_editors - Robin Patterson 06:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC) :::Nice---this would probably also help with the spelling checker problem. Don't know but might could work using WORD as the external editor, which would bring with it all of its spell checking capabilities. I'll have to explore this a bit. Actually, I'd probably use BBEdit, especially when I get into extension development---but it would be interesting to see if it would work with WORD. Bill 14:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC) Article is uncomfortably long "This page is 202 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections." (Whether or not there are problems editing, some of our browsers take "for ever" to open the page.) I really do urge you to split the page. I think I already showed how easy it is, a few weeks ago. Replace a long section with a link to the new page; readers who then want to refer up and down can just open all in new windows - switching is quicker than scrolling. Splitting it will also make this talk page less likely to become unmanageable. Robin Patterson 12:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC) ::Robin, I understand the problem. I will do the split within the next days. I want to have all together first, because it was easy the editing and corrections. Thanks for the patience.--Tasc 19:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC) ::I have divided the article in Spanish in three different articles. One main article, one with details of those SC from Argentina (in the future we can do the same with those from other countries), and one for Anecdotes. I will do the same with the English version when the translation is completed (it is easier for the translation to have all together, I think).--Tasc 12:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC) ::I found difficult to deal with notes (Fn function) when moving the pages to subpages, since contrary to , the xx function does not have an automatic numbering. Ideally we should have a new "ref" function called "note", working exactly as but deriving the notes to a section named instead of the section . Perhaps this is already implemented in the software. I will check on this. --Tasc 12:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Roble Tree Tasc, are you sure about the COA of the XXXX family containing a "roble tree"? Robles are white Oaks, and that fits in with the use of the Holm/Holly oak in another family, but the roble seems to be a native of the western hemisphere---specifically California to the pacific coast of Costa Rica. I suppose it could have been adopted by a returning conquistador, but that doesn't seem to fit in well with your thesis. Also, I'm not sure the link to the article on oak trees in general is particularly useful, since it does not mention the roble. Bill 03:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC). ::Very good observation Bill. I was confused with the tree; it should not be an American oak tree (roble). It is an oak tree, the same as the Guernica tree (Gernikako Arbola in Basque), which is also the tree in the arms of Biscay Province (different from the holly oak or "encina" of those SC from Mena). I will recheck the COA of those SC from Biscay to make sure. I will add a paragraph and reference to the Guernica tree, which symbolizes traditional freedoms for the Biscayan people and change the reference to the roble tree. --Tasc 12:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC) :::OK, I'll wait and see how you modify the text before going forward. "Geurnikako Arbola" appears to be a nickname applied to a specific tree, rather than a species name. You identify the holly oak, Quercus ilex with a species name, so for parallelism you may want to mention the species name of the "Geurnikako Arbola". You may also want to mention the signifcance of this particular tree appearing as an emblem on a COA. I take it that its usage as an emblem dates back to the Reconquista, or shortly thereafter. Bill 13:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC) ::::I agree. I should look for the tree variants used in Spanish heraldry for a generic name of the tree and not in particular the Guernica Tree. Nevertheless, I found interesting now to mention the Guernica Tree and that an oak is also the symbol of the Biscay arms. On the other hand, note that this data on the COA should go also with the meaning of the COA for the SC from Biscay, which is a section not yet developed (Section 3.7). I have written only on the meaning of the COA from Mena (more time needed).--Tasc 14:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Additional data:Roble is the Spanish translation of oak (genus Quercus). There are many species of robles in Europe and "roble" is mentioned in many COA of Basques surnames. It is possible that the name remained as "roble" in American English, due to the previous Spanish influence. The American roble should be only one type, the white oak, as you mentioned. Therefore, we should write "oak tree" instead of "roble tree" and add the reference to wikipedia, so the readers can distinguish the oak and the holly oak. I am trying to find a reference to add for this COA, corresponding to the SC from Biscay (not lucky yet).--Tasc 18:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC) References and Notes Robin and Bill. Before moving the sections Santa Coloma in Argentina and Anecdotes to subpages, I will change all the notes to references. I have moved already this sections to subpages in the Spanish version, and it will be now very difficult to find and correct all Notes, since they lack automatic numbering. We should try to see if someone can add the functions , and to the software (in addition to , and ). I think that the references, that support the paragraphs, should be in a different section than the notes that add further data or explanation to the main text, but do not support the text with documents or bibliography as the references do. Mix them using only the function will not adequate for articles rich in references and notes as this one. I tried to do this with Fn, but as I said, this is a very cumbersome function (probably for that reason was changed by ref).. Every time you add some note, you have to redo everything. If you move or erase some section, everything is a mess in the Notes section. --Tasc 14:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Centuries and dates I'm sorry Robin, but I do not have clear yet what to do with Centuries and dates. If I leave them as they are, xx Century or 16.., a broken link appears. If I link them to the corresponding wikipedia link, the broken link disappear, but we are moving the reader out of genealogy.wikia. Should I leave the links broken until the links exists in genealogy.wikia or should I link them to the most abundant information in wikipedia? Which is the best option? --Tasc 15:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC) :On some lists I use the byname of "Curdmudgeon at large". Here I'm trying to keep my curmudgeoness under control...that said....A couple of observations. 1. Since this is an English based wiki its not likely that the Continental style of nameing centuries would be adopted. It might be easier to just go with the flow and use "20th century", etc. 2) I know the wikipedia likes these collectors of information by year and century. But is this really important/useful to genealogists? Every person article that's created is going to have a number of dates associated with it--ie, DOB, DOD, DOM, etc. Given the potential number of person articles that's a lot of dates to be stored away in a date collector---whose function for purposes of the list is not clear to me. Does anyone really need a list of people who were born in say 1602? and another who died in 1674? and another who got married in 1635? This may make sense in the wikipedia, since such lists are going to collect information about historically meaningful people---We all have a few "historically meaningful ancestors" (Robin's Cromwell being a case in point), but the vast majority of our ancestors were everyday folks---mostly farmers. I really don't understand the utility of having a list of farmers born in each year over the last x number of years. But maybe there's something obvious whose point I'm completely missing. Bill 01:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC) ::Bill, I just do not know. I agree with your observations and for that reason I added a link to wikipedia for each date, perhaps to know what was going on in the world in that particular century or date. That could be perhaps useful, but I agree that a list of persons born in the same year might not be useful. Perhaps we should live the dates and centuries without any link, as you suggested. One point observed by Robin is that external links in dates and centuries will move the readers to other wikis, and that returning might not be that easy (loosing them). In that sense, it is perhaps better to leave them without any link. Lets see what Robin think. I have no problems in applying any of this three options (local links, external links to wikipedia as other similar links, or nothing). --Tasc 04:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC) Vacations I am in the north of Argentina now, in Paso de la Patria, fishing Dorados (Salmonids that can reach 15-17 kilos, o more, although normally they have between 6-11 kilos maximum). Thus, I will be out of internet for the next 15-20 days (unless raining). Regards, Tasc. ::Still on vacations and probably up to the end of February. I have gotten a 14 Kilos Dorado! The biggest in my 40 years fishing! Regards, --Tasc 16:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC) Revision Hi Tasc Welcome back! I've done relatively little with this since you went on vacation. About the time you left I began to realize that I needed to see where you were going with this (in English), before I attempt any more "refinements". I was finding that I didn't understand your organization well enough to do more until I saw the whole. So I'll wait until you complete your translation, and then see what needs to be done in terms of refining the English. Also, you might note that there is considerablly more activity on the Wiki since you last looked in. That's good, but it makes spotting changes of interest a bit more difficult. So posting to discussion pages, or to the watercooler are probably helpful. Either that or direct email. Bill :: Hi Bill. Thank you for the welcome. I understand the problem to check every page. But as you once cleverly said, what we have here is a lot of time! So, I will continue with the translation, a little fragment by week, and then we can select which sections to put in different pages. Regards, Tomás. Way of St. James I'm guessing at this. Tasc, a map showing the location of these towns would be very useful. Also a map of the Way of St. James.] (from Bill) ::The map was added.--Tasc 12:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC) I do not follow the logic here, as it relates to the preceeding paragraph in which it was originally embeeded. How does this relate to Petrus a Sancta-Columba? ::Bill, now the paragraph following the reference to Petrus a Sancta Columba was modified. I think it is better now. Subpages Looking forward in the document, I see that there's additional information brought in at latter points concerning a) distribution of the Santa Coloma name and its variants, b) Heraldry, c) migrations patterns, d) etc. These subjects have been partially examined previous to this. It would probably be beneficial to draw together all of the information in these isolated presentations, into single presentations on each subject. That way the information flow would be improved. One thing that would help would be to break some of these subjects into subpages, and draw all the information together there. I'm not prepared to go that far on my own, as this remains your article. So, for the moment, and until your return from vacation, I will confine myself to English adjustments. ::Right. But I would suggest to translate all the text first and then we can regroup all similar subjects into sub-pages, once we have all in perspective. Do you agree? We have decided (Bill and I) to wait until all is translated. Then we will divide the page into subpages, since it is too long for some browsers and also, to better distribute the subjects. It will be a page for each region (Catalonia, Argentina, France, England, Basque Country, other countries). It will be a page for possible origin, since it is very long right now. History this a continuation of the previous quote? it looks like explication, but I don't understand what's being said. if its explication, and not part of the original quote, then the quote marks need to be removed., and size made the same as for the main part of the paragraph. Translation needs to be worked on to make clear what is meant. Bill, it is all a translation of the original document. We should keep it as closed as possible to the original document. Perhaps few modifications to make it clear. Please, let me know which phrase(s) it is not clear. I made few changes to make it better (I hope). Bill, I linked the dates to wikipedia. Should I delete those links? Which is the policy in this matter of dates? Bill, please, read it once more. The text was corrected. I think that now the errors were fixed. Correspond to the small letters in this sections. This text taken and translated from the Royal Decree (I have an original and certified copy). The King of Arms relate what the chronicler related in old manuscripts. For that reason the text was a little confusing. Travel I will be travelling to the North of Argentina (Paso de la Patria), for a few days. I will continue with translation probably by the end of April. Regards, --Tasc 01:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC) English version Currently double-redirects to the Spanish version. Where's the English version? Robin Patterson 04:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Hi Robin. I don´t know. Someone is making changes to the format since long ago. --Tasc 11:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Robin, I have a frame in my page that indicates the location of the English version, but I cannot see this frame when editing the page and I cannot change it. Its location in the page is also wrong (over the title). Also, the redirections are wrong. Perhaps this has been done with a bot. I don´t know, I have to check the history. But I think that everything should be editable, to be able to correct this thinks. How can I access to that frame? I think the page was a lot clearer without that frame. --Tasc 11:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)